NARRATOR: Make the choice to begin anywhere in your life And the journey has started and along the way be inspired.

Listen to the stories by joining the President of Howard University, Dr. Wayne A. I. Frederick on The Journey.

As we commemorate the first Women's History Month since the historic election of Kamala Harris as the first female Vice President of the United States.

I hope we have all taken time this March to appreciate the progress we've made.

But certainly, we all have more work to do to ensure our society continues to be more equal, more diverse and more representative.

Hello, my name is Dr. Wayne Frederick and my guest today.

Dr. J. Dawuni joins me for an insightful conversation about how we can continue to empower women during this Women's History Month and beyond.

Welcome.

Thank you Dr. Frederick.

So thanks for joining us.

Much going on for the month of March, a different type of history month.

This will be the first year with a female vice president.

Let me first start by asking you about your thoughts about the historic election of Vice President Kamala Harris?

Thank you for having me.

It is indeed a historic month and a historic year.

If we can add that despite the COVID-19 pandemic.

And the election of Vice President Kamala Harris as the first woman vice president of the United States is historic globally.

Knowing that the United States has been leading in the fight for democracy and in the fight for women's rights in different spaces.

But to have the first woman vice president be a woman of color and more so, have such a strong connection to Howard University, not only amplifies the voices of women globally, but particularly it speaks to the voices of black women and women of color globally.

And as you look at not just her election but as you said, you know, post pandemic given what we've been through, the role that women have played in leadership across the globe.

You look at the Prime Minister of New Zealand.

You look at so many examples where they've led, but also we recognize that women have been at the forefront of blocking and tackling in our hospitals, in our communities.

The central role that women play in our society as leaders in particular, the framing of that for young girls in particular, How do you see that framing in terms of what young girls are seeing today?

Yeah.

Indeed, you're right that the global pandemic, women have been at the forefront, in a negative way but also in a positive way.

As we know the data show that women have been disproportionately affected by the pandemic, but also that women have been leaders in their homes, in their communities and of course, in leadership positions.

So, as you may know, this month Howard University celebrated our first International Women's Day.

And for this year we celebrated women frontline workers at Howard University.

To send a message that I our woman at Howard University within the black communities across the United States and globally have been working in the trenches and that we need to recognize that, accept those leadership roles and also use that as a way of sending a message that women can be leaders, they have always been leaders.

So I think it sends a very positive signal for women all over the world and for girls, that we as women and as girls can be leaders and contribute to the global systems that we find ourselves in.

And as you think of your own journey and you reflect back on growing up in Ghana.

Tell us what that was like at the time that you grew up in Ghana?

So I was born at the cusp of my father's professional life, if you call it.

He was a military colonel in Ghana and I'm shy to say that it wasn't a military dictatorship, which was unfortunately what was happening within Ghana and many other countries across the continent.

And so I was born at the time when he was the top military leader, very close to the president at that time.

But that also meant that a few years after I was born, he was... Another military dictator took over and my father was thrown into political detention.

So for the formative years of my life I really didn't have access to my father.

So that meant that I was brought up mainly by my mother and my maternal grandmother.

And so I think from a very young age I saw the power of women leading from the home, and they really molded me to be who I am today.

And what was your education like growing up under those circumstances?

Obviously, tension on the political front, but in a lot of the African countries that have gone through that cycle.

I think people fail to realize sometimes the education system seems to bolster in a very, very different way.

What was your experience like in Ghana?

My experience, I was... Once again, I think whenever I talk about feminism or women's rights, I would think about my grandmother, my maternal grandmother and I give credit to my mother too.

She had to take care of five of us, my siblings and I, but my maternal grandmother was not formally educated, right?

But she had a way of knowing that I as a girl had a right, just like my brothers.

And so the duty she gave my brothers and myself were not gendered at all.

The job that I had to do as a girl, my brothers had to do and vice versa.

So that meant that even though she wasn't formally educated, we joked that she knew, she could look at your work and know if you had done it right or not.

And so that was a way that I was brought up from a home where my maternal grandmother really was a strong foundation of my quest for learning in higher education and that really pushed me despite the inadequacies within the educational systems.

And in the educational system, do you think there were disparities that were based on gender in terms of where people would guide you at that time in your formative years, in terms of interests?

So if you developed an interest as you went on to become a lawyer?

Were people encouraging of that or were people saying to you, "This is not something you should pursue?"

You know, I must say that I never really got that in terms of the educational setting, being told what to do.

But I remember very well, I would get comments like, "You are so beautiful you should be a nurse.

You are so beautiful you should... You're so quiet you should be a teacher."

So it wasn't so much about my gender but the perception that I had the looks that could make someone feel well if I was a nurse.

But then again, I think it was gender because I wasn't told to be the doctor, right?

Yeah, right.

So I think that's an aspect of gender.

But my parents never really distracted me from any kind of or push me into any particular professional setting.

I wanted to be an architect but I just couldn't draw a straight line.

I wanted to be a medical doctor but I just couldn't understand physics and chemistry.

So I ended up in the law.

I understand.

Now in as you decided to pursue law, why law?

What about maybe your high school years, you know, really got you interested in pursuing law as a career?

I think it was partly unconscious and maybe conscious.

I was and I still am someone who cares deeply about people and people's suffering.

And I thought if I couldn't be a medical doctor to help with the sick physically and mentally.

I could help people by defending them and so I decided that law was what I wanted to do.

And my ambition was to be an international human rights lawyer and go around the world defending the rights of women and girls.

Then as I grew and I studied and I realized there was so many human rights abuses, especially when it came to women and girls.

And I realized that I would just cry reading about those.

And I thought, "Okay, how can I still be a lawyer, defend the rights of people but do it in a different way?"

And I decided pursuing education, further education, doing a PhD.

That I could do that in the classroom.

So I joke and I tell my students, "I'm still a human rights lawyer, but I'm doing it in the classroom, giving you your right to education.

Right, absolutely.

So, as you said, you attended law school in Ghana and then subsequent that you got your masters, and subsequently then a PhD in political science.

At the time that you got your PhD in political science with your background as a lawyer, what do you think... At that time what did you think about the politics around feminism, gender, rights or even gender inequities?

What do you think the state of our politics were, here in the U.S. and probably even more globally?

Yeah, from a global perspective coming in back into the U.S., I think that the thing that connects my three different degrees, the Law degree, my master's in International Development, my PhD in Political Science.

It's always been centered around women and girls.

And so if you're talking about law, at that time there was the... A smaller number of women lawyers and even in spaces in countries, where they were a good number.

They were not in leadership positions in law firms or in the judiciaries.

If you're talking about international development.

International development policies were affecting women negatively.

You know and as much as we would want to believe that these policies were working towards empowering women.

And of course in politics there were also countries that had never had women as president, across the continent of Africa until Ellen Johnson Sirleaf, which was after I had.

And so you find out that with all of these laws and policies do have a positive outcome for women, if they are looked at from a gendered lens and that is what we need to have a discussion about how to look at these policies from a gendered lens in order to promote understanding of women's issues.

Well, there's no irony lost at the fact that the first time I met you, actually it was not here on campus.

In terms of really my memory of meeting you, but rather it was on taking an international flight because you were off to do something and that we know, why don't you tell the audience a little bit about that?

Yes, indeed.

I was, I think it was Dallas Airport.

I was on my way to a conference in the Hague.

I had been invited as a speaker at a conference and I saw you and I thought, "Well, this is my president, I can approach him," because I did tell my chair that I was going to do this professional development, so there's no fear in that.

And so indeed since that conference in the Hague, I have been invited to so many conferences as a speaker, as a facilitator and with COVID 19, a lot more of these virtual events.

And I think it's also the ability as a scholar to put yourself out there and that's what, I think Howard University has really help me.

When I came in I got the support I needed to advance my research and my research on women in judiciaries across the continent of Africa and internationally.

I would say I has made me a globally known scholar on this issue.

So I'm really grateful that I get to expand the opportunity and with that conference, I wrote a paper called "From Howard to the Hague" and just talking about my journey from Howard to the Hague to present at these conferences.

So I'll take the little footnote mention of my my role in the airport, but talking about your scholarship.

Let's focus on that a bit.

You've obviously been writing a lot about a variety of issues around this from a very different perspective.

And I think as a black female scholar, your lens is certainly different.

Why don't you talk a bit about your most recent book and kind of what got you into that area of focus?

Yeah, so my most recent book published, it's the 2018 book by Routledge called International Courts and the African Woman Judge.

And there's one in the pipeline coming out, hopefully this year, also by Routledge and that looks more at women judges and gender issues within the courts and judiciaries.

And so what got me started was once again, I kept thinking, "How do I bring together all of the training and the passion I have?"

So with a law degree, with a focus on international development and politics.

I have put all of that in terms of researching women in the legal professions and I started off with judiciaries, and I'm proud and happy to say, as I'm always reminded to be proud of it.

And I say it in humility, that I really have been the first person really to do work on women judges in Africa in a concerted manner.

So my first book, which came out in 2016 was the first ever book to discuss women judges in the continent of Africa.

And I'm continuing to build that, not just by myself, but pulling other scholars in, pulling students in so we can build that field and beyond that also to theorize.

So I'm beginning to get into the hard task of looking at it.

What does it mean from a black perspective, black woman, African, specifically and what theory better explains these questions.

Our higher courts here are devoid of... Are devoid of African-American woman at a the highest level.

What are some of the insights that we can potentially glean, as we look forward to what, maybe our Supreme Court, Mayhall and some of the higher court and the other higher courts in the nation, from what you have seen happen with the African female judge over time?

Yeah, so lots of factors and I think one of them is really the respect and recognition.

That if we respect that women and black women or other women of color have the equal qualifications, the equal ability.

That respect therefore leads to the recognition that they can occupy those important positions that are available.

And we often talk about the fact that it's based on merit, but scholarship has been done to debunk the idea that merit as we think is not always objective, as we want to believe but it's highly subjective.

Who set those standards of merit?

Mainly men, male white men.

So until we begin to deconstruct what it means to have the merit and realize that it was really shrouded in patriarchy and maybe some levels of racism.

Then when we apply it to women and black women, it will not fit.

So those are the issues that judiciaries within the United States would need to look at and to begin to deconstruct and a lot of that work is done, has been done already.

And in your book, when you look at the female judge in Africa, any differences stand out to you in terms of rulings, case assignments, you know, how their offices and support systems are set up that may be vary significantly from the men in the system?

So this morning I just had an interview with the current Chief Justice of Zambia and we were talking about her role as a chief justice.

And I'm glad to say she was...

I organized the interview, so she was interviewed by an African-American woman judge, who is a retired judge of the Seventh Circuit, Judge Ann Williams, Ann Claire Williams.

And so there's that connectivity and judge Williams has been working with the Zambian judiciary and other judiciaries across the continent of Africa.

So these connectivities exists, but we also have to remember that they are under different contexts.

And so what may work in the United States may not necessarily work in the continent, but that most of the women judges and male judges have to deal with harder issues of lack of resources.

And so the little that they have, the women will have to make the magic happen.

And there's that extra burden of being a woman and a leader that you have to balance and that's always a tough one.

Okay.

Now so your scholarship certainly caught my attention as we've tried to focus on issues of gender and especially, women issues to which I feel particularly motivated by a large percentage of our undergrad campus, 70% plus in some years are woman and our (mumbles) in our leadership.

Now nine of our 13 deans are women and so with that in mind, I've always felt that this is an area that we should have and your scholarship certainly, I think put some foundation and platform around that.

Tell our audience a bit about the genesis of the center that you're leading and kind of what you anticipate doing with the center?

Okay.

Coming to Howard and once again, just realizing the wealth of history, the wealth of legacy of women in Howard history.

Whether it's the founding mothers, if we want to call them that or just the alumni we have and just a student body like you said, and realizing how powerful these women are.

And really seeing that these are the kinds of attributes I read about, these are the kinds of attributes I want.

I'm very much positive oriented.

I don't want to look at problems and get distracted, so I like to see positive things and highlight those.

So just the legacy of what women in Howard history have done really pushed me to say, "If we don't have this, where else can it be?"

And I would say that under your leadership and really thank you for being open because it takes an open ally to make sure that we push the agenda.

We've been able to get this funding and we're going to be establishing the center.

We're still working on the mechanics of it, but it's gonna be a global center of excellence for black women and global gender issues.

So that we can put together all the developments that have happened in the history of Howard.

Increase women in leadership but most importantly, prepare our students to be the next generation of women leaders we want to see.

Right and as you look at it, especially as we... You know, Howard is is such an epicenter of so much of black excellence but I think what sometimes really powers it forward is the collective aspects of what has happened around all of the globe that has been touched by what happens here on this campus.

So with that in mind, especially on the global aspect of it, you have an involvement with UN Women and the HeForShe campaign and maybe you can tell our audience a bit about that as well?

In terms of how you see the center, touching I think just maybe one example.

Yeah, definitely.

I mean, the center that we rightly called it A global Center of Leadership, right?

So women in global leadership is that we are... Howard University has seeds everywhere.

The Howard alumni who are men, women who are all over the world.

And so we want to harness the African or a Caribbean women, or you name it, Howard alumni who are globally located?

They don't necessarily have to be... You know, we have our alumni African-American students who are also working globally, maybe not located in the space but global with organizations that they're working in even if it's here in the U.S..

So how do we do that?

By creating partnerships with organizations that also share this vision of excellence for global gender issues and the UN is one of those.

UN Women, as you know, was established to address specifically, gender deficiencies or women's deficiencies within the organization but also globally.

So UN Women under the president and the current leadership Executive Director Phumzile Mlambo-Ngcuka, has setup the up the HeForShe campaign, which really is an idea of involving men in the fight for gender equality.

And I'm glad to say that Howard University has partnered with UN Women under your leadership.

And we are going to be promoting gender issues and women issues in partnership with men.

And that's gonna to be really exciting to open up and bring black men to the table when we're talking about gender issues and women's issues.

And I certainly want to acknowledge and thank Jim Murren and his wife, their seven figure gift to get this started really means a lot to us.

Heather Murren in particular has been very focused on women issues throughout her career and I think has been a stalwart.

And so we certainly, you know, thank them for their leadership and bringing this kind gift and bringing this dream and vision as it were to fruition.

Students are gonna be very excited to participate in these activities.

What are some of the specific activities you foresee that you would involve students in?

Yeah.

So yes, indeed thanks to Mr. and Mrs. Murren and I think it's worth mentioning that when I was brought to the discussion about they're thinking about making a gift.

I was told they were thinking about making a half a million dollar gift... No quarter of a million dollar gift and so between the time I told them the vision and the proposal in the Zoom meeting, it went up to a million dollars.

So, like they really believe in this vision and they've promised to continue to work with us to raise more money and we are opening up for more partnerships like that.

And so what are students going to benefit?

A lot.

The center has four focus areas and that is student centeredness, faculty involvement, community engaged and global outreach.

So that means that everything the center does in our vision of achieving black excellence, global issues.

It's all about the students at Howard University.

And I must say that it's not just the female students, it's also the male students.

We have a big discussion going on about possibly leaving the men behind, which we don't want to happen in order to tilt the balance again towards gender inequality.

So student research opportunities, student funding for doctoral and postdoctoral opportunities.

And we're also looking to build what we call the pipeline, where students can be matched with high impact individuals and organizations for internship and externship programs.

We're looking for funding opportunities, more funding to allow students to have a global experience.

Study abroad exchange programs though international organizations.

I would love to take students to the Hague and like you mentioned through the law school.

Through the law school to get our students to begin to understand how global systems work because we just don't want to have our students limited to the United States, which is of course not always the case, but we want them to be global leaders.

So students will have many opportunities and I'm looking forward to rolling out some of these programs soon.

It's 2021, we have the center launched, we have VP Kamala Harris in the white house.

What do you see as the most critical issue or a couple of issues for women today and their advancement?

So there are five areas I've identified for the center to focus on.

And someone asked me, "Why don't you just choose one, so they are globally known for one thing?"

And I said, "Unfortunately, black women, we don't have the luxury of choosing just one.

Our lives are too complex and too intersectional."

So what does it mean?

That if we're looking at the five areas the center will focus on.

It's law and social justice, which social justice as you know, it's a big part of Howard University's mission.

It's also women in politics and public policy, how the laws and the policies affect women, black women and all women.

And we're also talking about health and wellness.

We know that data show, once again, that black women are disproportionately affected by health issues and then business and entrepreneurship.

And then the last one is women in science and technology.

I don't want to choose any of these five children over... One over the other but I would say that the main focus really would be entrepreneurial leadership.

Because we know that money and capital really pushes many doors open, so... And Mrs. Murren has mentioned that she's ready to help us build this kind of base for capital and business and entrepreneurship.

And I think once women have economic opportunities many other doors will possibly open, but they also need health, they also need laws that would make it possible.

They need science and technology and artificial intelligence and all of those.

Well, we certainly look forward to the success of the center.

As we close as I ask every guest who comes on The Journey, why Howard?

Why Howard?

Howard is a place where I can be me.

I don't have to pretend to my colleagues, to my students.

I don't have to be careful with what I teach.

I don't have to pretend everything is okay when it's not.

We are very open.

We take our frustrations and we express them, but we also look to how we can build community and that's what really drives me at Howard and makes me always say, "This is really a place I want to be," and it gives me a sense of always wanting to give back.

So at Howard I'm giving back and giving back to people who need it the most.

And so, even though I couldn't be a medical doctor, I think that Howard allows me somehow to live vicariously through medical doctors, like yourself, through Howard University Hospital, the School of Pharmacy, law.

We have all these great programs at Howard.

And so I'm able to connect with people and live vicariously and that's really what inspires me at Howard.

Well, thank you.

You're using your talents as good medicine as they say, applying (mumbles) to wounds.

That I think for too long woman have endured and I think that that healing couldn't be more timely.

And I think that you're the right type of doctor for that type of disease per se, so we appreciate you.

Thank you.

Thanks for being here.

My guest today was Dr. J. Dawuni.

Associate Professor of Political Science and Executive Director of the Center for Women Gender and Global Leadership at Howard University.

I'm Dr. Wayne Frederick.

Please join me next time on The Journey.

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Thank you.